A Gross Conversation and Thoughts on Feminism

I’ve wanted to write on this topic for a long time, but I always stop myself. My mind goes back and forth on where I should stand, it’s a tricky issue. The term “feminism” is so varied now that using it means something different to everyone. I’ve kept my mouth shut to avoid saying something stupid or that I may change my mind on later, but I think the time has come to take a stand. I was recently involved in a very… unpleasant situation and coming out of it I knew it was time to get my thoughts in writing to ensure that I could better articulate my feelings on the matter.

In any case, I’ll never learn if I stay silent.

The incident:

I was watching a live stream, and to the side there was a chatroom. It was fairly late (Constant Consciousness, I’m up all the time) and there weren’t many people on. I never engage the chats. The internet is full of the dumbest people in the world, why would I want to talk to them? But I stupidly let my eye drift over there and saw what they were talking about.

“All women are just cum guzzling sluts.”

Ok, whatever. That’s typical internet trolling. Gotta be just that one guy being a jackass.
Then I read the responses.

“Truer words never spoken.”

“This man is a genius!”

“Preach it, brother!”

Fshhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Just let it go. They can’t all be that stupid. There’s gotta be one person there arguing with them anyway, right?

Then the first guy starts up again.

“The female population is almost all cum sluts. I’d say there are less than 10 percent that don’t fall in this category. The only thing they’re good for is a good fuck once in a while. That’s all I do with them anymore. I learned my lesson about those whores long ago.”

Someone’s definitely gonna ban that guy, or call him out on being an asshole… Surely.
Instead, I saw this:

“Right on, my girl knows all she’s good for is giving head.”

“You are really opening my eyes. I can’t believe I’ve been crying over that whore I was with.”

By this point I was pulling my hair and screaming at myself. “Don’t get involved, don’t get involved, don’t get involved. You won’t change any minds, they’ll all gang up on you, they’re all just idiots, arguing on the internet is one of the stupidest things a person can do.”

“There’s just no trusting those devious cum loving sluts. You’re better off just sticking it in em and leaving.”

FUCKING GOD DAMN IT, I CAN’T HELP MYSELF!
And I really, really, wish I could have.

“So… are you really saying this stuff right after hearing Elliot Roger shouting the same kind of stuff?”

And that devolved into them making comments about how Roger did what he did because he was a weird freak who couldn’t get laid. The point of that comment wasn’t to figure out why Roger did what he did- that’s a whole different can of worms- it was to point out that they were spewing the same kind of hate speech he was. What was phenomenal was that even though they all identified the stuff he said was disturbing; they couldn’t see that they were echoing his sentiments towards women.

This led their ring leader (the one constantly calling women cum sluts) to share his story about his wife of two years cheated on him and left him. He claimed to be in his late forties with kids. Then he went on calling them all whores and sluts, and saying it’s just the way those deviants are- which again was met with a chorus of agreement.

Then I said something along the lines of:

“You realize your mother is a woman, right?”

Perhaps not the best thing to say. My goal there was to get them to remember that they interact with woman other than people they want to fuck. Instead I got this response

“I’m sure she’s guzzled plenty of cum.”

More agreement from the peanut gallery there. At this point I was wondering if this guy was just trolling. Sadly, even if he was, there were so many people in there agreeing with him that some had to genuinely feel that way.

I really wish that was the end of it. To save time I’m just going to summarize the general manifesto here:

“Women are only good for sticking it in every now and then. I finally smartened up and realized that. Now I just go out every week and get a good fuck from those sluts and be done with it.

And this point I pointed out that from what he was saying he was the slut in that scenario and he was reinforcing a double standard.

That’s not true at all. Women are supposed to be satisfied sleeping with only one man. It’s okay when they’re young to experiment with others a little, but by 25 if they haven’t settled down with one man then they’re cum sluts. It’s biology. (actual quote)

Biology…. Yeah. I can’t tell you how stunned I was when people agreed it was biology. I asked for some sources on that, but of course they had none. They just said “everybody knows that” or “That’s the way it’s been since caveman times.”

Then, of course, they started assaulting me- calling me an idiot or naive. At one point I used the phrase “I think” and someone said “Thinking? That must be new for you.”

I grew up a liberal atheist in the deep south, I’m used to that.

Eventually the conversation devolved into how women were just a man’s rib and that started a whole argument about whether god was real and I just left cause I didn’t need none of that.

So, let’s take a look at feminism and see where things start getting tricky.

Most people see the core value as “equality for men and women” and in America most people will agree with that because we’ve been ingrained with the equality doctrine since youth. I can’t say why people say it’s a good thing and then intentionally not do it, but whatever.

Even the imbeciles in that chat room said women deserve equal pay and opportunities… of course even while they said it they would make jokes about women needing to stay in the kitchen, but whatever, they were morons. At least they knew how to echo the hollow sentiment.

So if women are equals, where did the “cum guzzling slut” sentiment come from?

I believe that in America our problem is many men only see women as relationship partners or someone to fuck.

Many men in that chat room expressed derision towards women for burning them at some point in the past. In an attempt to defend their feelings, they began to demonize women and decide it is the way of their gender to be devious and slutty.

If women had followed proper “biology” they would have stayed with the man rather than leaving him. It is against “nature” for a woman to be with more than one man. A standard which, for whatever reason, doesn’t apply to men.

This is a typical coping mechanism. When I was dumped I often had friends say things like “Women really know how to screw with your head, man” “they like to do things that upset you to see your reaction.” And in my emotionally weakened state I may have nodded my head and agreed because it brought me some degree of comfort.

Convenient answers always bring comfort.

Now I know this is coming, “Women do the same thing to men.” Yep, they sure fucking do, we’re getting to that, stick with me.

Once you start accepting these sentiments you start to look at women differently. You identify them only by how they work in a relationship dynamic and it makes it easier to forget that you have female friends, mothers, sisters, cousins, whatever.

And America is fucking obsessed with relationships, so this is a real problem.

One man in the chat room began telling the ring leader that no matter how embittered he was towards women, he would love again and it would brighten his world view.

Cause the only way to see women as more than sluts and whores is if one is in love with you.

What this attitude does is force a man who is genuinely looking just to talk to quickly, and subtly establish with any woman that he talks to that: No, he is not hitting on her, and, yes, his motivation for speaking to her was completely in the interest of friendship- not a fuck.

How many times have you seen this line from a guy?

“Women only like jerks. They never go for nice guys like me.”

Here’s what that guy is really saying:

“I’m incredibly needy, and women are stupid for not liking me.”

This is the kind of douchebag that’s going to shower a woman with praise and attention to the point where it becomes nauseating and stalkerish and all the while he’ll pat himself on the back because he’s such a “great guy.”

America is a culture so saturated with romanticism that people view relationships as a status symbol and their only means to a happy life.

It’s tragic how the values of being alone are downplayed and even ridiculed so that if you’ve never been in “love” then you’re somehow less of a person.

To me feminism isn’t just equal rights- it’s destroying this image of women as someone you either marry or fuck.

For me, feminism is just as much for men as it is for women.

The reason most people think of feminists as bitches is because there’s a lot of bad feminism out there. In fact, the loudest voices in feminism are bad feminists.

“Bad feminism” is the feminism that creates an “us” vs “them” mentality.

During college I took a feminist oriented class. One time, during a group assignment, I didn’t have much to contribute and one person said to me “That’s okay, one of the best things a man can do for feminism is keep quiet.” I’m sure she was half kidding, but I somewhat resented the statement.

I can’t pretend to know what it’s like to be a woman, but I do know what it’s like to be a person, to know what’s right and wrong, and help create a society that’s ideal for everyone.

Feminists who say that men are keeping them down are just as bad as the people keeping them down. They’re creating antagonism between two groups and that’s only going to make things worse. Don’t highlight a villain, highlight a problem.

I made this argument with a woman once and she directed me to Jill Tweedie’s “Why Nice Girls Finish Last.” I read the essay, and while there were some valid points, on the whole I found it distasteful.

“A hurdle for nice, reasonable English ladies is to realize that nice, reasonable gentlemen are, to some extent, the Enemy.”

The majority of her essay encouraged women activists to be unfair and prejudiced (yes, she used that very word) in order to be heard.

In rebuttal, I point you to the civil rights tactics of Martin Luther King and Malcom X. Martin Luther King never made it a battle between white and black people. His speeches were always about everyone coming together. The enemy was racism, not white people. To him it was about making people realize we’re all in this together.

Malcom X was far more of an extremist. Early on he did make it an “us” vs “them” situation and his methods were far less effective and often criticized.

Though racism still exists, the situation has significantly improved, and you’ll be hard pressed to find someone who doesn’t attribute that to MLK.

When you push someone, they push back. You don’t change minds with aggression.

Furthermore, for feminists to proclaim men as the only perpetrators of sexism ignores the fact that these things happen to men too. One big thing male feminists hate is how trivialized rape with male victims is. It does happen to men, and it’s every bit as traumatizing. There’s a reason men are deathly afraid of going to prison. Just because it doesn’t happen as often doesn’t mean it’s not an issue.

And yes, women will also demonize men after a breakup. Calling us callous, shallow, only interested in one thing. Then we are seen as people who will only talk to women if we think we’re going to get something out of it. Sadly, I think in many cases that’s true. That’s why I say feminism is just as much for men as it is for women. We need to change that attitude so we can approach people without having our motivations questioned.

I want to be able to go to a movie without seeing a half naked woman arbitrarily put on screen because some idiot in Hollywood thinks that’s the only way I’ll enjoy it.

Finally, I want to discuss the responses to the Elliot Roger murders which were, across the board, appalling.

First off, when it first happened, every piece of news I came across talking about it pushed it with their agenda. In fact, most people brought up what issue they wanted to push before talking about what actually happened: gun control, feminism, men’s rights. This was day fucking one, and I didn’t see one person expressing concern over the victims.

Give it a day. I’m not saying don’t bring it up, but give it a day.

Next, #YesAllWomen was… disturbing. The majority of the tweets that I came across with this hashtag discussed how women were constantly living in fear that men would rape or assault them. Many comments were about how they couldn’t dress a certain way, or go certain places, or even be around people because they were so afraid.

To me, this painted women as meek sheep who are afraid to do anything because something bad might happen- which I know is not true, this is just what the tweets conveyed. There was no strength here, this was women highlighting everything that scared them which seems like it’s the opposite of what you want.

I was given the impression that women are constantly living in fear of being raped or assaulted. Is that really how women feel? I am honestly asking here, because as bad as things may be, I don’t think women want to portray themselves as completely helpless.

The majority of #YesAllWomen came off as “Us” vs “Them.” And, yeah, #NotAllMen was extremely stupid, but what did they expect? Men felt like they were being cast as villains. To them it read that all women see men as oppressors so they did whatever they could to defend themselves. It was pathetic.

Worse still were the responses that validated #YesAllWomen by “Men’s activists” who actually said they felt Elliot Roger’s pain.  Good Motherfucking Christ you have gotta be kidding me.

Finally, there’s one response that really rubbed me wrong. Many women who are using the Elliot Roger killings to highlight misogyny have actively downplayed and belittled the fact that he killed men as well. I’m not saying that this incident shouldn’t be used to point out some problems with sexism, but to ignore the fact that men were killed just because you’re scared it will hurt your cause is atrocious. I have read several pieces that something along the lines of “yes, men were killed as well, but his attack was obviously focused on women.”

To mention it like an afterthought like that… I just can’t stand that. He murdered people, and everyone who died is of equal value there.

Now at this point I’m sure I’ve created quite a divide amongst readers. Perhaps I’ve said some things that are ignorant. As I said, feminism is a tricky concept. We’re all just trying to do right in the world. So here’s my final thought on the matter, something I hope everyone can agree with:

I’m a feminist because I want people to be seen as people. I want to stop immediately identifying someone as man or woman and to view people as individuals rather than a series of stereotypes or a potential mating partner. I want women to feel that they aren’t constantly objectified, and I want people to stop thinking that men are only interested in sex. I want labels to be stripped away and for us to see each other only as human beings. Cause that’s what we are, man, and we’re all on the same team here.

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4 thoughts on “A Gross Conversation and Thoughts on Feminism

  1. Excellent post. I think more men need to do what you did and stand up to other men. I don’t know how I feel about feminism. I believe men and women should enjoy equal rights. The problem is in conversations of women or men (groups of either sex) when the bashing starts, opposition from the opposite sex is just seen as proof their claims have merit. If someone of the same sex stands up to them, then I think it more likely to be noticed and considered.

    • Well, I haven’t done much good to convince other men, but I certainly hope it works better for others, haha.

      The problem with being a male feminist is that people think you’re a self righteous prick or working an angle to pick up women.

      It’s a lovely world we live in where even noble causes may have selfish motivations behind them.

      Thanks for reading.

  2. Just to answer your question about women being in constant fear. It is true for more women than you would expect. That doesn’t make us helpless though, it makes us aware of a possible danger. Personally, I often feel obliged to think that way. Whenever a woman is attacked there are numbers of wise people giving advice of what she should had done, that if you “go somewhere dressed like that, drinking that much, you’re asking for it”. The fear, in the end, is not of the attack itself but more of the fact that nobody will be on your side, that there’ll be very little help, if any, from anyone. So we go to self defence classes, carry a spray and try to follow “the rules” of avoiding an attack just so nobody will accuse us of asking for it. And that doesn’t make us necessarily helpless, it can make us angry as well. And that’s a more global point of view.
    Then there’s an individual point of view that depends on an idividual’s personal experience. For example, I realised some time ago that I am unable to be in a relationship with a man because of fear. It’s difficult to explain, I lead a normal life, have male friends, I had short and long term relationships in the past, I was in love. But my personal experiences made me scared of men. I can’t let anyone close to me, I don’t know how to trust a man anymore. And it’s not fair. Not to me and not to men in general. And I know it shouldn’t be like that but I can’t change myself that easily. The violence I witnessed and was victim of, the stories of revange porn, being molested by a partner during sleep, manipulation, bullying, rape jokes, victim blaming.. this all adds up and you think – yeah, I’ll feel better single. It took me some time to understand that because I never knew that what I felt was fear. I was alert all the time, en garde, expecting an attack (could be just verbal), or a trap, so I was always ready for defence or contre-attack. I had issues to sleep with somebody else in my bed. It’s rather sad when I think about it, but I’m just writing the truth. And I know that NotAllMen, I had and have wonderful men in my life, my brother and grandfather, friends. But if you’re taught something from when you’re very little, it’s very difficult to change yourself when you’re an adult. And it’s a pity we can’t talk about it openly without being judged and without feeling that the half of population is to be blamed. I admit I was hurt, over and over again and it made me who I am now. I work on my issues the way I can. But it’s difficult to have a conversation about it if the man I talk about it with get’s offended by it. And here’s what we should work on as a society.

    Peace.

    • Thank you for the very honest and sincere response.

      I wrote this a few years ago, and my views since then have drastically changed, to the point where even having this here is kind of embarrassing and I may delete it soon.

      There’s a lot I didn’t think about when writing this, a lot I never had to consider because of my privilege. It was extremely arrogant to claim fear was some position of weakness. I realize now that its because so few people understand that to be a real thing that too many people are willing to dismiss feminism as “unnecessary and aggressive.”

      I’m sorry for your experiences, I can see where the anxiety comes from. You’re right, we shouldn’t be telling people they shouldn’t feel afraid– that’s absurd. We need to be making changes in society so no one has to feel afraid.

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